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05/11/2016

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Redeye80

So, where are the photos showing other seniors doing the same thing? Clenched fist and all?

KenWats

I recall one cadet being kicked out of my ROTC program for a photo. Unfortunately for him he was photographed while participating in a post-football game riot, bloody and squaring off against state troopers.

Diogenes of NJ

If there was any connection to or support for Black Lives Matter then the statement that this picture entails is entirely inappropriate. How many more Fergusons will it take for the Black Lives Matter movement to be recognized as the subversion that it obviously is? It also appears that the cadets are members of a segregated organization by both race and gender. I thought that this type of "exclusion" is to be frowned upon in "diverse" organizations.
If the Army were to kick these cadets out - they would be way behind on their quotas.

Feh

"Four years of successful academic achievement and military instruction completed, but a simple picture means they should be cashiered?"

What would happen if a group of white students gave the saluto romano?

terribletroy

Some things are WYSIWIG. Am I supposed to believe that a average African American doesnt equate and understand that the clenched fist when used by African Americans (especially in a group)is traditionally viewed as symbol of "black power"? I am I supposed to believe that these (obviously above average) African Americans were unaware of this traditional viewpoint? In its modern usage what has the clenched fist represented when displayed by African Americans in a group?

Am I supposed to believe its unreasonable for a viewer to interpret the image in the traditional manner?

SFC Dunlap 173d RVN

It evoked Smith/Carlos at the '68 Olympics to me. I can totally agree it is tough to be black in the US, that this group of young women are obviously semi-brilliant to brilliant mentally & academically while at USMA. What I don't understand that in a military organization this group of cadets wouldn't understand the notion that the "gesture" can confuse. I can't say expelling would be in order but if white students did a known salute from Germany in the 40's the ensuing action by the Academy would naturally be swift. Carlos and Smith were athletes, the cadets...soldiers and the difference shouldn't be hard to discern.

Casey

"obviously average"

...And you were admitted into West Point when?

Casey

Whoops. Forgot this comment system doesn't have an edit after post function.

As for the snarky questions about the Fascist salute, who here remembers that originally -while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance*- one was expected to hold one's hand over the heart, until saying "to the flag," at which point the hand was supposed to face the flag, straight-armed.

In other words, it was the American version of the "Roman salute."

On Facebook Baldilocks added a post of a cadet at a football game with clenched fist raised high. She wanted to know how those two poses were different.

Y-not

"I can't say expelling would be in order but if white students did a known salute from Germany in the 40's the ensuing action by the Academy would naturally be swift."

IMHO there is a difference between a salute associated with a murderous foreign enemy dictator and one whose origins are much older (http://www.samgraysociety.org/sgray/fist.html) and whose usage is much more widely distributed (including as an anti-Fascist salute in Spain). For myself, I associate the raised fist with defiance, first, and black power, second. I don't know what the cadets intended to convey.

In any event, it looks like this is going to be a teaching moment for these young women. 'Seems like an appropriate response to me.

Burn the Witch

So we can look forward to you not commenting on any other organization in which you weren't a member?

The mature thing is to address the criticism instead of declaring it off limits because the critic doesn't know the secret handshake. You're not special and neither are these girls who happen to be black. Some black people have it tough, some don't. Some ____s have it tough, others don't. Amazing how deeply that identity politics shibboleths are ingrained.

And context matters. Conflating this photo with completely unrelated examples at sporting events or obsolete pledge gestures would be comical if it weren't so breathtakingly dishonest.

Marcus Traianus

Unfortunately, in today's society only certain groups can avail themselves of rational explanations. In that regard, indeed, yes, of course, not everything is an outrage. Nor should we become part of the Outrage Mob on the basis of someone else's emotional hysterics. That's an irrational act guided almost solely by emotion.

However, a leader lives in a bubble where every action or gesture they take is judged by someone. That's part of the responsibility. In that regard, this is at a minimum "insensitive" (a word we've otherwise heard often), ignorant of consequence and dilutive to the morale I'm certain these cadets learned they should maintain at West Point. But I'm sure they know that now.

Like it or not, equitable or not, they've now created questions about the fairness of their leadership and decisions before even taking a command. The real test of whether this is truly a "nontroversy" will be in those future interactions and decisions.

W. Fleetwood

Outrage? Well no, outrage requires some element of surprise, and a blatantly racist message delivered by a self segregated group of Race/Gender special snowflakes followed by a cowardly response and a wave of "You didn't see what you saw, and if you did you're a racist sexist homophobe." apologists, is simply not in any way a surprise. It's the way things are today.

Elsewhere one of the snowflakes was quoted (although not by name) as saying "We were just hailing our triumph." Which shows that not all that free education was wasted, and that even racists can have a sense of humor (Try the phrase in Duetsche).

Oh, no connection to The Ring Factory. Connected to the Army by scar tissue and stainless steel bits in my bones.

Sua Sponte

SKTrynoskySR

If I were a white Senior NCO who had one of these newbie shavetails as my boss, I wonder if they would even listen to my advice let alone rate me fairly. It was not so many years ago when some rebel 2nd looie would not treat a black NCO with any respect at all. That was wrong then, this is wrong now. The only punishment.....let them know it was wrong. Actually get together a whole bunch of black Sr. NCO's like I had in '69 and let THEM tell these ladies.

Jim Bowen, Class of '82

Cadets sometimes do stupid things. They're getting remedial training, which is punishment because nothing matters like your free time, especially so close to graduation. Hopefully they learned something from it.

kaf

Jon Gabriel said it best: "My favorite part about the Obama era is all the racial healing."

timactual

"one was expected to hold one's hand over the heart, until saying "to the flag," at which point the hand was supposed to face the flag, straight-armed"

That's news to me, and I attended about 6 elementary schools, jr. high school, and three high schools.


The superintendent got it right;

"The time, place, and manner of a symbol can also hold significant meaning and influence perception.....they demonstrated a lapse of awareness in how symbols and gestures can be misinterpreted and cause division."

I would have hoped they had learned that officers are expected to maintain a certain image, but then there is a reason 2nd lieutenants aren't expected to know too much.

McThag

"The mature thing is to address the criticism instead of declaring it off limits because the critic doesn't know the secret handshake."

The n-word is off limits unless you're of the correct skin-tone.

I don't that word because it's offensive, and I ask the same courtesies in return from others with the things that are offensive to me.

redc1c4

there is a reason enlisted troops don't expect much from officers, and i predict these self absorbed idiots will not even clear that low bar. they go into the ranks knowing they are protected from their own stupid acts because "racism"

as i once explained to an FNG why our medic platoon had an MSC PL: "someone has to go to meetings and sign for shit..."

that i said it within earshot of 1LT Dumbass was totes an "accident", of course, because i wasn't facing him, and, as such, had plausible denial (the Army never tested me for peripheral vision).

Top came by later to halfheartedly chew me out for saying it, and i said "but it's true" him "Yes goddamnit, but did you have to say it where he could hear?

he left us with a $30K+ report of survey, and, when i ran into him next, at the LAAFB Clothing Sales, he was wearing railroad tracks and was a company commander.

he introduced me to his XO, and was uber pleasant, right up until i asked him whatever happened to the RoS he departed with... he suddenly was in a big hurry to GTFO of the AO.

and a point of order: if you have it tough here in America, where the hello were you going to go to have a better shot at life, regardless of your sex, skin color, etc... if your cultural group has systemic problems, you might want to look inward first, instead of playing the victim card.

hatred of education (acting white) baby mamas and absent fathers, hiphop/rap/urban/whatever they're calling it today culture & values, poor english skills (acting white again) victimhood, etc are all self-inflicted wounds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhPqmJynQPU

Wysiwyg Mtwzzyzx

So it's just celebratory fist pumping? Um, no way. They almost all have the same orientation of the fist (excepting the sword bearer to our right). That orientation is the same one you use to emulate the leftist/black power/islamist oppressed united against injustice salute. Fist pump and look at the angle of the fist relative to your shoulder line. Now hold the fist salute and see how when you align the palm out, you have to twist it outward in an unnatural motion (which is only sustained by active pressure, not possible to maintain with relaxed muscles). You don't do that with a fist pump. Now, I'm not saying they're black racists, it could have been intended as an innocent attempt at humor of one kind or another, or they had in mind some other innocuous kind of resistance they were signifying as a joke, but it certainly appears to be a salute, not a fist pump, and it was inappropriate, and unwise. Expulsion? no. Punishment? Yes, certainly. You represent the whole Army when in uniform- act accordingly.

Feh

"As for the snarky questions about the Fascist salute, who here remembers that originally -while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance*- one was expected to hold one's hand over the heart, until saying "to the flag," at which point the hand was supposed to face the flag, straight-armed."

Yeah, I knew that. And good luck to any USMA cadet doing that and telling people it's the "innocent" Bellamy salute. His ass would be out the door in a heartbeat.

"In any event, it looks like this is going to be a teaching moment for these young women."

What they're going to learn is they can do their Black Power shit and get away with it.

Feh

One reason the Right always loses, and why culture keeps moving Left: the Right gives the Left a "pass" on most of the things they do, and the Left NEVER gives the Right a "pass" on anything they do.

The Right will stupidly enthuse and "liberty" and "rights" as the Left gradually increases their stranglehold on every institution until one day the Right will find they have no liberty and no rights left whatsoever.

Casey

Do you guys even have any black friends? Trust me, the view is very different from that side.

Diogenes of NJ

The soft bigotry of low expectations flourishes at universities including out military academies.

Grow the heck up

These are American soldiers. They look great. They should be proud, and people should be proud of them. So, if you are outraged, or offended, or disappointed, or upset, all I can say is, sucks to be you, doesn't it?

terribletroy

Whats the number of comments for a post record on this blog?

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